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Written by Chris Butler
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Wednesday, 16 March 2005 |
A Day With Dave Courtney, Mike Biggs, Ian Freeman And The Crime Through Time Museum.
By Chris Butler.
Well then, I hear you all shout, what the fuck is this all about then?
Well stop fucking crying and I'll tell you. Myself and my mates Charlie
and Sean, went up to the ‘Crime through Time' museum in Newent,
Gloucestershire, to meet up with that well known ‘celebrity gangster',
the one and only Dave Courtney. Now for those of you who don't know who
he is, he is a former gangster, and was known amongst other things as
the ‘heir apparent' to the Kray Twins. Also as well as the ‘Yellow
Pages of the Crime', he is what you and I would say is, or should I
say, was, a very naughty boy. If we want to go on, he's done debt
collecting, fraud, handling stolen goods, bank robbing and murder.
Allegedly. Anyway, you get the idea. Oh yeah, and before I forget, he
used to be a skinhead, and that is one of the reasons I went up to do
an interview with him, as well as shake hands with a living legend.
Anyway, like I said my mates and me went up to this museum in an
event that was sponsored by Crimebizz.com, and the event took place in
the museum and in a pub just up from the museum itself, The Red Lion.
Nice pint in there too. We got there from Plymouth at 1 o'clock, and
proceeded to the museum. The museum had a free entry door policy that
day, and it has been described as the Black Museum of Gloucestershire.
And they ain't kidding either! The museum was actually a former police
station and courtroom, and amongst some of its recipients were none
other than Fred West, the House of Horrors mass murderer, who raped and
murdered some of his kids and other unfortunate souls. The sick cunt!
On the outside of the museum is allsorts of torture and execution
equipment around the place, and inside is some of the most notorious
displays of human suffering I have ever seen. There are pictures and
‘artefacts' for want of a better word, of the Holocaust, SS uniforms
and other Third Reich memorabilia, they even had a Ku Klux Klan outfit
for a three year old. Also various notorious prisoners and villains
news-cuttings on display, and just about anything bad that you could
think of in there. As well as antique Police truncheon collections, you
name it, its there! I could have stayed in there all day as the things
in there absolutely fascinate me, but there was drinking to be done as
well!!
We spent a good hour in there, and then proceeded to the pub, where
we were to meet Dave Courtney. Dave was delayed as his car had broken
down on the motorway, but that was no bother as we chatted away the
time and sunk a few pints. When Dave did arrive, we went up to the
upstairs function room were an auction being done by Dave, of books and
crime memorabilia of the most notorious prisoner in Britain today
Charles Bronson. For those of you who don't know who he is, he has been
in prison for 26 years (on and off) and has served 20 of them in
solitary confinement. Can you believe that? Which is no surprise that
he is the world record holder of press-ups, as well as other feats of
strength. Also, he is by his own admission, ‘a little bit mad'. As for
his crimes, well robbery for one, but also taking a few cons hostage in
the various nicks he has been in, and the Governor of Hull Prison!! As
well as his stuff up for auction was a few bits and bobs that Dave
Courtney had, such as his tool in trade, a knuckleduster, and some
other books of other infamous criminals and signed photos of Ronnie
Biggs, the famous Great Train Robber, and signed t-shirts as well.
The auction went off well enough with the proceeds going to
Charlie Bronson's charity, Charlie's Children, which is a benefit for
the Moors Murders victims. So don't say that Charlie hasn't got a
heart, he has, it's the size of the geezer himself, and that is big!
After the auction, I went and had a word with Dave, and asked him
for an interview, explaining what it was all about. He said to me that
he was a skinhead, which I knew, but as it happened I thought I had
actually tied it up with him beforehand with a bloke called Steve
Parnell who does the http://www.davecourtney.org.uk/ website and is
well worth a look also. Anyway, no bother, he was fine about it, and he
agreed to do it a bit later on. Smashing! Super! Great!
Next up on the agenda was a Q and A session with a bloke called
Ian ‘the Machine' Freeman. This bloke is the British Vale Tudo
champion, Intercontinental V.T. champion, and a UFC Veteran. Basically
he kicks ass for a living and is a mean muthafucka. On his flyer what
was floating about the gaff it said ‘Don't take my politeness as a
weakness- so don't take the piss!' Which, when you meet the guy and ask
him for an autograph, is probably one of the first things that strike
you when you do. The bloke is an absolute gent, and really pleasant
with it too. As well as being a big hulk of a gadgy, he was well turned
out in a dapper suit and if you take a gander at the flyer here, you'll
see what I mean. There was also a video to introduce you to the bloke,
which was shown to display his awesome fighting prowess, and believe
me; you wouldn't want to cross the bloke! Questions flew at him such as
the toughest bloke he'd ever fought, to would you fight Mike Tyson, and
all the answers were either in the affirmative or the positive.
Basically there ain't a man alive he would fear, he definitely knows
how to handle himself. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank him
for signing his autograph for me, as well as being a very enlightening
character. Cheers Ian, you are the dog's nuts, mate!
Time moved on a bit, a few more drinks were had while Dave was
signing his books and chatting to people and wotnot, and eventually he
managed to find time for us for an interview. Also present was Charlie
and Sean, and what has to be said is that when Dave speaks, you listen.
Another thing too, is that you can spot the genuine in him, he is as
large as life, and although not a monster of a man, he is about 5' 10"
tall, but has seen it, done it and clumped it too. Anyway here goes
with the interview, read on.
Chris: Here goes with the interview, and Dave, first off thanks for your time for this interview.
Dave: My pleasure. Hold on, whose got a light?
C: Oh hang on, he's sucking a big fat Cuban and it ain't Fidel Castro!
D: Ha! Ha! Ha! Oh fuck off!
C: When were you a skinhead and how long for?
D: All of my fucking life, I was born with no hair and still got no hair and am fucking proud of it!
C: Why did you call it a day then, the fashion aspect of it?
D: In my heart, I will always be a skinhead, but it's just in
business and going into a business meet in your new cherry reds and
sta-prest, it does not go too well, because skinheads are looked down
upon by people in authority - and they shouldn't be- you have to go
with the flow and hide your true feelings from some people. Don't get
me wrong I am Crombied up to the eyeballs at weekends and I own 3 pairs
of DM's.
I have never lost touch with my roots and it is fashion that cannot
be lost with age. You still get 40 year old geezers dressed up, (C: I'm
38!) and it still looks well ‘ard as he did when he was 18. I still
sometimes go out dressed up when I am not dressed up now as I am being
photographed as I live in a fish bowl at the moment. If I fart someone
wants to take a picture of it! Know what I mean?
C: Ideal. What attracted to you the cult then?
D: The fucking unity; the us and them mentality of it all. It's
like being stood in a mob of football hooligans all giving it Oi! Oi!
And the unity the unity of skinheads, and the look of skinheads, you
don't have to work out his personality, you can work out in your head
he's one of yours and that's fucking handy, and I applaud that.
C: OK, that's excellent. What bands did you listen to, and if so whom do you still listen to?
D: I am a great fan of the Business (and friend of Steve Whale, the
guitarist-Chris) and I love the ska bands, the music of the era fits in
with my social life. Skinheads are sort of universal; it's only lost
its popularity in this country. In Europe it's still fucking massive.
Like I said I listen to the ska/reggae stuff and also the rave scene as
I am a rave promoter for One Nation with Terry Turbo, but mainly the
ska bands. (Dave was the rave promoter of the year for 1999-Chris).
C: Specials?
D: Yeah, but to embarrass me now I can't think of any off the top
of my head! (That's OK Dave! -Chris) But if you were to have a look in
my cd collection now you'll find a Specials cd in there now.
C: Nice one. Next question then, did you follow a football team and
if so was there any nonsense you wouldn't mind telling us about and do
you still follow this team?
D: Yep, I'm an Arsenal supporter (Shit! - Chris) I do apologise for
that (!) but when skinheads were in fashion to speak, Arsenal and Spurs
were the big skinhead clubs.
C: What about Chelsea?
D: Chelsea are the absolute fucking nuts they have been better and
they were probably the team of the era. Even if you didn't support
Chelsea you said you did, as it was the thing to be!
C: What did being a skinhead mean to you? - because being a
skinhead to me now means being proud of myself, my mates, my job and
family, looking different and a love of the music as well.
D: Skinheads are probably the only fashion that has gone out of
fashion, but people can still do it and be proud of it. Skins do it as
they get older but with a little bit more class. Do you know what I
mean? Listen, I'll be totally truthful, there is nothing that can touch
skinheads for class, it is one were you prided yourself on your
appearance, like you was into shiny shoes, creases in your trousers,
clean Ben Sherman's and not scruffy hair. That goes through the ages,
from the 1920s to the Millennium, a smart appearance counts for a lot
and is business wise. It's only the government that says if your hair
is too short you are cunt! There is a stigma attached to skinheads as
there is to criminals. That is not absolutely true, as that doesn't
mean you have to be a nasty horrible cunt, because that's bollocks, the
Godfather to my children is a bank robber and you couldn't meet a nicer
fucking man in your life. Skinheads get shit for one thing or another
but long they may continue, please God!
Sean (my mate): Skinheads are defined by smartness, but do you
think that skins are defined by the way they can handle themselves?
D: Put it this way, if a skinhead couldn't handle himself then
there was plenty of other people about that could help you out! (True!
-Chris) The same with any other fucking nationality in the world; but
as patriotic as I am, English people don't do that, but if a black
person was whacked round the head 10 other black geezers would jump out
and help him whether they knew him or not. But skinheads do that;
they'd run across the road and help him out.
C: That is spot on Dave. Moving on then, I understand that you
arranged security at a Business gig. Can you tell me how that came
about, because what I heard that Combat 18 had taken a liberty at one
of their gigs, and I was wondering if this was in anyway connected?
D: That was very connected, I hope that you are not associated with
Combat 18 (Give us break! -Chris) but I am married to a Jamaican woman
and wouldn't change it for whatever. Combat 18 basically took over at a
Business gig at Tufnell Park Dome, causing trouble and that, so I took
on the security the following year and went down to their stronghold at
a gym and told them I was doing the security and if any of then was
seen in the vicinity then I would smash the fucking living daylights
out of them and I had enough people there to do so.
C: OK, that's what we wanted to hear, and I'm glad to hear it. You
also appeared at the recent HITS gig with the Business, how did it go
and did you feel at home amongst a load of skinheads?
D: They made me feel well at home, they introduced me as ‘ Ladies
and Gentlemen, a man who has being fighting the authorities all his
life...' and I don't know if you've been introduced to 2000 people but
when they all go ‘Whoooaahh!' you get a fucking almighty wind feeling
and it almost knocks you over. It was one of the most exhilarating
feelings I have ever felt in my life. You can't help but the love the
people that love you for that.
C: Nice one. OK, moving on a bit, this question is stopping short
of what is your favourite colour, but if there is anything you could
change in life or society for the better what it be?
D: The fucking police force! (At this point everyone around doubled up with laughter!)
C. My best mate's a copper (this is actually true, and I couldn't
ask for a better friend, especially whem the chips were down for me
once, at a Naval Court Marhall. Nice one Mark Johns!)
D: Listen, I just got nicked for having a best mate as a copper,
the bottom line is this I had a copper working for me for 15 years and
when we got caught, this is what the cunt said and this is applies to
anyone else, if you nicked a fiver out of your Dad's wallet every
Friday night when he came home pissed every Friday night for the last
fifteen years, and you got caught, would you say that you've being
doing it every night for the last 15 years? I got caught with a bent
copper I've had for 15 years working for me, he says ‘No it's the first
time I've ever done it, and he's been helping me for the last 15 years
- the little cunt! - So I fucking beat him up in the dock of Bow Street
Magistrates, went to court, got found Not guilty and the copper 4 years
and I have wanked ever since! (Hoots of merriment all round here!)
C: Excellent! Ok next question, are you still planning to leave this country, and if so where?
D: Right, this is the truth; I have spent the last 10 years of my
life kicking the police up the fucking bollocks any fucking way I can,
to actually expose them for what they are.
Sean: You went to court, as a court jester didn't you?
D: Yeah, I went to court as a court jester and beat up the
policeman in the dock who called me a grass. I would very much would
like to stay in England as it is my home, and am very patriotic, but if
the authorities decide to look at you as a criminal, and I have decided
to knock it all on the head, to make films and do interviews and all
that, the policemen in England are not going to say ‘OK let's leave him
alone', I will always be a scalp for some young fucking copper like how
Charlie Kray or Kenny Noye ended up and try and catch me for as long as
I stay in this country. I feel I may have to go somewhere where I will
can make plenty of money and not have to fucking hide it. Know what I
mean?
C: Yeah, good answer. OK, can you tell us what Ned Rawlins is up to
these days as I used to know him when he was in the Navy and is he
behaving himself?! (Bit of laughter here, as Ned is a doorman who works
for Dave -amongst other things!)
D: You would know the answer to the second question; he is not
fucking behaving himself. Ned Rawlings is a 6'7" black geezer and he
will do what the fuck he wants! (Laughter all round here!)
C: OK, happy with that, a subject close to my heart, are you
involved in promoting boxing be it amateur or professional, or do you
get involved with any amateur boxing clubs or martial arts clubs for
that matter?
D: Yeah, I am involved in the Honor Oak boxing club as a trainer
and sponsor, and I am involved in the UAO unlicensed fighting and I
have done a bit of amateur boxing as well as having been a pro boxer as
well, nowhere near your class in the amateur thing Chris, (C; Cheers,
Dave! I wasn't that good though!) And did better at the unlicensed
thing.
S: How many bouts did you have Dave?
D: I had 8 professional bouts, lost 4. I had 90 amateur bouts and I had 18 unlicensed fights.
C: Nice one, Are you happy with being daubed as a ‘Celebrity
gangster', as the reason I ask is that is that I liken it to say a
‘professional Welshman' such as Max Boyce who was trotted out at the
England-Wales rugby game (again) at the Millennium stadium and
basically makes my skin crawl!
D: The actual throne has been thrust upon me, as the voice piece of
the British Gangster Society, and although I don't want to be seen as
throwing bouquets at myself, there's got to be a voice for the English
gangsters. I don't thinking I am doing a bad fucking job. If the rest
of world looks at me and says here's a typical one. It's very
unenviable to have to practise what you preach, because everything that
I say or do is documented and written about and I live(d) what I am
saying. I am trying very hard to make a profession that is daubed as
shitty and dishonest look as classy as possible. If you're doing
something that is classed by the rest of the world as bad, i.e. crime,
then you try and do it with as much dignity and honour and respect as
possible, because they are thinking you're a cunt anyway. So I try very
hard to portray me and any English naughty person, as fucking classy as
any John Gotti cunt as possible!
C: OK, the lovable rogue like Charlie just said there. Have you any advice you can give to people?
D: All that ‘crime don't pay', crime pays until the day you get
caught. Know what I mean? There are no more Sherlock Holmes around
anymore, were you were pitting your wits against the clever policeman.
When the Berlin Wall came down, the Old Bill found themselves with 50
million quid's worth of spying equipment that they never had and rather
let it rot away in a garage somewhere they've given it to a normal
police station who normally haven't got the budget for this hi-tech
stuff, and you are now trying to beat telephone bugs, satellites and
stuff, and I dare anyone, even Mother Teresa, if they bugged her house
and her car and her phone, or something to dethrone her, and you are
now as a criminal, as a gangster; gangsters have now gone out of
fashion, same as pirates, cowboys, knights in shining armour all that
‘You dirty rat', is fucking finished. If you are thinking of a life of
crime, then go get a job in the city, ‘cos they are the real criminals.
The ones with flat noses and shaven heads, and beating people up and
trying to be gangsters, they are only going one way and that is to
prison I'm afraid. To be a criminal today has to be quite hi-tech!
C: Right that's a good answer; Sean has a question for you.
Sean: In the film Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, how did you
see the Scousers portrayed within the film and what is your general
view of Scousers? (Nb. Sean is a Scouser by the way).
D: Scousers are very much a breed of their own; they are some of
the wittiest people I have known. We have in this fucking country;
Scousers have been very easily turned into a dishonest bunch of people,
and I'm afraid the general opinion of Scousers is not true, they are
go-getters and they have learned you can get further by smiling at
people and being nice than puffing yourself up and giving it all that,
they are clever enough to talk money out of people than scare it out
them. You have turned it into a technique and I applaud you for that.
An awful lot of my closest friends are Scousers and they treat me like
a fucking king when I go up there and I go there at least twice a month
on a weekend. In answer to your question, yes I am a Scouse fan.
C: Do you regret anything in life?
D: Yeah, I bought a pair of red shoes last Christmas for 150 quid
and I have never worn them because they make me look like a cunt! Apart
from that I would not change a thing.
C: Any last words for visitors to the Glasgow Skinhead website?
D: Don't look at any other website, ‘cos it's the only one worth seeing!
C: Even your own site?!
D: Oh yeah, that as well!
C: Can you sign my book please?
D: Sure.
C: Whose round is it?
D: Yours, mine's a brandy and Coke.
We chatted a bit more about other things, such as boxing and the
unlicensed fighting he promotes as well as a gangster film he is in the
progress of making, were he is in negotiation with Quentin Tarantino
and other main players to star in the film. The film is entitled ‘Hell
to Pay', and Dave is starring in it himself.
Well, there you have it and an enlightening chat that was. I would
again like to thank Dave for his time and giving us all a good laugh
and for letting us into his world, and being a larger than life
character that he is and all the rest of it.
Anyway, time progressed on and I also had the opportunity to meet
Mike Biggs, son of a Great Train Robber, the one and only Ronnie Biggs.
I did actually tape our chat that I had, but as I was a bit pissed up
at the time and some of the nonsense I and Sean were talking it
wouldn't make good reading! What I did establish though, was that
Ronnie has lost the power of his speech since his second stroke and
although has all the other faculties about him he has to watch himself
and ease up on the drinking as well. Then again he is 71, and not
getting any younger. Mike told me also he is making Brazilian folk
music and there is not an instrument he can't play, so not only is he a
son of a ‘celebrity criminal', but he is a star in his own right. As he
was in the major spotlight, when he was aged between 6 and 13 as a
child pop star in Brazil. Having had the good fortune to actually have
met Ronnie at his home in Rio, the gold discs decorating the place are
testament to this. Anyway, like I said, I was a bit worse for wear for
the drink, but I'll say this, Mike is a lovely bloke and it was a
pleasure to meet him. Again, I'd like to thank Mike for his time and
wish him and his father all the best. God Bless.
The evening progressed further, with Dave doing his bit with ‘An
Audience with Dave Courtney'. This was televised and will be shown on
the telly at a later date. We had to leave when he took a break but
before I left we all went to shake hands with the man and again thank
him for his time. The thing what struck me most was that he has no airs
or graces about him, and that he conducted himself with all the charm
in the world. As did his lovely wife Jennifer, who is also a star in
her own right as a rapper and MC, and not once did I or anyone feel we
had to bow down like he was royalty or anything. A big shout out then
to Dave and everyone connected with the crimebizz.com event. Another do
is pencilled in September, and if you can make it, then do so. Or Dave
might have to pay you a visit!
To find out more about Dave Courtney and the rest of the people
mentioned, visit the websites that are available to access as follows:
http://www.davecourtney.com/ as well as http://www.davecourtney.org.uk/
and http://www.bronsonmania.com/ and also http://www.ronniebiggs.com/ .
There you will find access to other websites and well worth a look they
are too.
Anyone requiring a copy of the actual interview on tape without
the editing as above, so you can hear what he actually sounds like, can
obtain a copy from me for £5, to Chris Butler, c/o the Range Office,
HMS Cambridge, Wembury Point, Wembury, Plymouth, Devon PL9 0AZ.Send
cheques or postal orders, or well hidden cash. You know what the
thieving bastards at the Post Office are like!
And while we're at it, Dave has a couple of books out for those of
you who don't know, they are ‘Stop the ride I want to get off' which is
his autobiography, and ‘Raving Lunacy' which is about his involvement
with the rave scene and all that. They are well worth a read too.
Available from all good bookshops and some crap ones as well. |
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